Author Topic: Taurus .223 Revolver  (Read 13236 times)

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Ruger .454

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Taurus .223 Revolver
« on: February 28, 2011, 09:52:30 AM »
Taurus is evidently releasing a variant of its Raging Bull revolver chambered for .223 Remington.  It's not on the Taurus web site (the web site is never kept current), but it was apparently introduced at the SHOT Show.  Here's how I learned of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_Raging_Bull
"I would never invade the United States.  There would be a gun behind every blade of grass."  - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, Imperial Japanese Navy

woodpile

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2011, 11:18:56 AM »
Rumors have been around since 2008 - I don't see any indication it made it past "concept stage"
The Honorable Woodpile
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Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless..
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HOSS

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2011, 11:58:26 AM »
Making a pistol, a revolver no less, in .223 is as dumb as it gets. People will buy anything. If they do this, it'll be a case of a dumb manufacturer building a gun for an even dumber customer. Dumb and Dumber. That sounds familiar?
"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get me"

811XX

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2011, 12:05:15 PM »
Making a pistol, a revolver no less, in .223 is as dumb as it gets. People will buy anything. If they do this, it'll be a case of a dumb manufacturer building a gun for an even dumber customer. Dumb and Dumber. That sounds familiar?
I don't know about all that. Handgun hunting is pretty big around here so that will serve a decent purpose for coyotes, fox and other vermin. 

HOSS

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2011, 02:14:44 PM »
It'd be OK if you loaded your own rounds for it, but any factory .223 has rifle  powder, and with a 10" barrel you'd be better off with a .22LR or .22 Mag at a whole lot less money. Maybe 10" would get the bullet up to 900-1,000 fps, but that's probably the best it could do. Just gotta have more barrel for the slower burning rifle powders to get anything out of them. I could be wrong, maybe it'll get faster than that, I just doubt it. I'd sure check the specs before I put out any money for one!
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Ruger .454

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2011, 03:09:54 PM »
I just checked the Hodgdon site, and I don't think that any of the powders listed for .223 Remington are pistol powders.  Probably have to go with a faster burning rifle powder like Benchmark.  An amateur really has no way to know what the internal pressures are for such a nonstandard load as this.
"I would never invade the United States.  There would be a gun behind every blade of grass."  - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, Imperial Japanese Navy

HOSS

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2011, 07:27:41 AM »
For the most part, pistols that are designed to use rifle cartridges are a novelty. The public thinks "hey, this is great! I'll have the power of an AR15 in a compact handgun size." The manufacturer know better, but they're just out to make money. The mechanics of rifle rounds require a certain length barrel to get adequate bullet speed. As an example, the 12ga needs 18" of barrel to reach maximum velocity; 20" for 3" magnum, if I remember correctly. If the barrel is shorter than that, you'll just blow unburned powder out the end of the barrel, powder that couldn't contribute to the speed of the load. The shorter the barrel, the more powder you'll blow out the end. A 10" barrel for a .223 would probably loose 1/2 it's powder charge out the end of the barrel. Like Ruger says, you could load up a .223 with faster burning powder, but you won't find any listings for that kind of load in any of the loading manuals, so you'd be flying blind. I made a friend of mine some "squirrel loads" for his 3030 one time. Used a 110gr bullet and 296 Powder. It worked really well. But I had researched other loads that had that much 296 exposed to the primer "loosely", and knew what my pressures would be. It could be done for .223, but it would require some research. Even then, you'd still be in the "magnum pistol" velocity range: 1,100-1,300 fps.
"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get me"

woodpile

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2011, 01:39:49 PM »
I am not advocating the .223 concept, but there are useful applications that can emerge. Due to the popularity of the Judge, 410 GA "pistol ammo" has been developed with some useful qualities.
The Honorable Woodpile
Constable - Coffee County

Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless..
    -- Isaiah 10:1-2

Ruger .454

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2011, 02:14:27 PM »
A .223 load with a fast burning handgun powder like Hodgdon TightGroup for a Judge-like weapon might be worth exploring, maybe with a 65 to 68 grain softnose bullet in a 9 to 1 twist barrel.  But again, working up the load would be challenging and maybe even a little risky.  At some point you're going to have to wrap your hand around the weapon and fire a series of completely experimental rounds.
"I would never invade the United States.  There would be a gun behind every blade of grass."  - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, Imperial Japanese Navy

daylen

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2011, 06:40:12 PM »
You guys do know armed forces the world over that use the 556 nato have availible and many times use SBR with 10.5" barrel? Having such in a pistol is not stupid. Yes, some velocity is lost, but it is not reduced to 1000 fps or even close. Most velocity is gained early on in a barrel, it is not linear. As far as energy goes half of the energy in a standard 556 is about equal to a 357 mag; one quarter of a standard 556 is still more than a 22wmr.

HOSS

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2011, 04:10:09 AM »
Daylen, if you've got some research stats I'd love to see them. There is no reason for a bullet to gain more velocity "early in the barrel": the same powder is burning at the same rate and providing the same amount of pressure. The only possible variant is the larger diameter of the case vs the barrel. I suppose that could be a factor. Would love to know! Winchester shows 55gr bullet muzzle velocity at 3,240 fps. A 10.5" barrel is 58% of the full 18" AR15, so you might get 1,879 fps out of it. That's not too bad. I was originally thinking about the version with a 7" barrel as being the one that is a joke. It's the one that produces about 1,231 fps. My mistake. A 10.5 barrel gun would be pretty effective. Thanks for catching that!

For technical clarity, the AR15 utilizes 5.56 ammunition. The revolver from Taurus uses .223. Since both rounds have casings the same size and powder loads are pretty much the same, comparison of the two is reasonable.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 04:26:47 AM by rtchoss »
"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get me"

daylen

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2011, 09:52:42 AM »
Daylen, if you've got some research stats I'd love to see them. There is no reason for a bullet to gain more velocity "early in the barrel": the same powder is burning at the same rate and providing the same amount of pressure. The only possible variant is the larger diameter of the case vs the barrel. I suppose that could be a factor. Would love to know! Winchester shows 55gr bullet muzzle velocity at 3,240 fps. A 10.5" barrel is 58% of the full 18" AR15, so you might get 1,879 fps out of it. That's not too bad. I was originally thinking about the version with a 7" barrel as being the one that is a joke. It's the one that produces about 1,231 fps. My mistake. A 10.5 barrel gun would be pretty effective. Thanks for catching that!

For technical clarity, the AR15 utilizes 5.56 ammunition. The revolver from Taurus uses .223. Since both rounds have casings the same size and powder loads are pretty much the same, comparison of the two is reasonable.

Pressure is nonconstant and burn rates only affect how quickly the pressure drops; as long as SAMMI specs are followed. Below are some reading materials that have a fair treatment of the subject matter.

http://randywakeman.com/Preview_The_Bad_Bull_Worlds_Most_Powerful_Muzzleloader.htm


Ruger .454

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2011, 10:52:58 AM »
Leave us not forget the difference between velocity and acceleration, or that as the bullet progresses down the barrel there is increasing volume behind it which deminishes pressure.
"I would never invade the United States.  There would be a gun behind every blade of grass."  - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, Imperial Japanese Navy

macgulley

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2011, 01:23:14 PM »
Article on effect of .223 barrel length on velocity: http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html
Short answer- about 500-600 fps loss from 22" to 10" with the tested powders. Velocity from 10" barrel ~2200-2800fps with 52gr bullet.

HOSS

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Re: Taurus .223 Revolver
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2011, 04:50:57 PM »
The test reference was interesting. Never saw anyone cut down a new rifle barrel one inch at a time! As far as the maximum loads listed, the H322 and 4198 both are "borderline" or possibly over the CUP pressure limit of 52,000 SAAMI assigned for the .223. These guys may find out the hard way that guns can be overloaded.

As far as I'm concerned, this subject is resolved. With factory loads, the 10.5" .223 handgun should be a fine weapon if you want a 22 caliber.
"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get me"

 


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